Realistic immersion gear advice (waders vs wetsuit vs drysuit)

I live up here in Oregon and I own both a Kokatat Hydrus 3L Angler's dry suit and a wetsuit.  I rarely use the dry suit because, for all their good points, they're still a one-person portable sauna - and a dry suit you've unzipped to prevent heatstroke isn't protecting anything if you end up in the water.

I found splashing water on the drysuit has a minimal cooling effect because of the base layers you must wear underneath it.  That's where the warmth originates, and if the base layers don't continue to keep you warm with water splashed on the outer dry suit, you aren't going to survive in the ocean for long.

Also, consider that even the highest quality multi-layer Gore-Tex material will leak if there's sufficient pressure differential - like getting caught in a sudden squall can create.  They aren't totally waterproof, they're only waterproof to a point, after which they're a micro colander.  I have personal experience with that phenomenon.

Yes, a lot of us on NWKA espouse using a dry suit, but here on NCKA, members went batshit crazy over Eddyline kayaks and a lot of others followed (and for a while, it was Santa Cruz kayaks).  A trend doesn't make it the best idea.

To correct one statement, above, neoprene is a closed cell foam and water cannot permeate the material to any significant depth.  But also note is that a wetted wetsuit in moving air acts like an evaporative cooler, so water-repellant outer layers are a Really Good Idea on cool, windy days.

Dry suits really do keep you dry.  I have spent many 4-6 hour days snorkeling and speargunning in a dry suit, and my clothing stays dry underneath it.  A dry suit makes outstanding rain gear; I have spent many days whitewater kayaking and kayak fishing in a steady rain and wind, and my clothing stays dry under the dry suit. And I have spent many days whitewater kayaking in a dry suit, getting hit by heavy breaking waves and blasting through holes, and my clothing stays dry under the dry suit. On multi-day whitewater kayak trips, I wear the same clothing on and off the river, knowing that I can rely on my dry suit to keep the clothing dry while running whitewater during the day.  A dry suit makes it unnecessary for me to carry a complete set of on-shore clothing inside my kayak, and makes it unnecessary for me to dry out my on-river clothing at night, which in cool and rainy weather can be difficult to do.

I know how much clothing I have to wear under a dry suit to stay comfortable for hours in the water at various water temperatures, such as in the lower 50s.  But to stay comfortable and relatively safe in a dry suit when kayak fishing, you need to compromise.  Because I hope to stay in my kayak and not end up in the water, I usually wear enough clothing under my dry suit to stay comfortable while fishing after checking weather predictions for the anticipated air temperature, wind, and precipitation, which is usually not enough clothing for me to stay comfortable for an extended stay in the water, but is enough clothing to keep me relatively warm for a couple minutes while I right my kayak and climb back onto it.  If I expect the air temperature to be cool in the morning and warmer in the afternoon, I'll wear an appropriate amount of clothing under my dry suit so I won't overheat in the afternoon, will wear a parka or a pile jacket over my dry suit in the morning to stay warm, and will take off the over-layers as the air temperature increases later in the day.  Putting on and taking off a pile hat or balaclava is a good way to adjust your comfort for changes in the air temperature or wind speed during the day; I wear them under my sun hat or waterproof rain hat.

Here's a couple pictures from a four-day 116-mile whitewater kayak trip on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River in Idaho, launching on Marsh Creek, where we paddled through snow on the shore, and sometimes falling snow, for the first day and a half.  I wore the same clothing on the river under my dry suit, and off the river in camp and while hiking, and my dry suit kept the clothing dry.

Thanks for the info and tips Pete.  You are hard core kayak fellow.

Dry suits really do keep you dry...

Peter, I know you're smart enough to understand the manufacturers' data about permeability across a pressure differential, and all breathable materials, regardless of type or manufacturer, will leak when that pressure differential is reached.  Gore-tex has the highest point of reverse permeability but it, too, will allow water to flow backwards through the material when that pressure differential is reached.  Even the multi-layer stuff.

You haven't reached that point is the best anyone can claim.  I have.  More than once.  With a 3-layer non-Gore product and with a Gore-Tex Pro product, and neither had been punctured.  They will keep you dry to a point, after which they won't.  That's all I'm saying.

Well, that, plus they'll bake you if you're in sunshine all day.

Dry suits really do keep you dry...

Peter, I know you're smart enough to understand the manufacturers' data about permeability across a pressure differential, and all breathable materials, regardless of type or manufacturer, will leak when that pressure differential is reached.  Gore-tex has the highest point of reverse permeability but it, too, will allow water to flow backwards through the material when that pressure differential is reached.  Even the multi-layer stuff.

You haven't reached that point is the best anyone can claim.  I have.  More than once.  With a 3-layer non-Gore product and with a Gore-Tex Pro product, and neither had been punctured.  They will keep you dry to a point, after which they won't.  That's all I'm saying.

Well, that, plus they'll bake you if you're in sunshine all day.

I've used wetsuits and drysuits, and I can see that there are some pros and cons to each. But, I'm confused by the line of reasoning in this response. Yes, with enough pressure, water can get thru Gore-Tex, but the rating for the Gore-Tex Pro in my drysuit is something like 28,000 mm water column, and I don't believe you can reach anything close to that in any real-world scenario. If you were getting wet in your Gore-Tex, I'd bet my bottom dollar that is was due to some issues with poorly sealed seams or other small holes.

Furthermore, if I don't wear my Gore-Tex, what's the alternative? If I'm wearing any breathable fabric other than Gore-Tex, it's going to do worse. On the other hand, supposing that I'm wearing a wetsuit, and I'm above the water and getting soaked. Then I'll probably be freezing, on many days to the point of hypothermia. If I'm in the water, the wetsuit will do its job, but so will my Gore-Tex drysuit (unless it's holey), as there is no way I'm going to even approach the pressure limits--unless I try to swim to the bottom of the Mariana Trench (OK, that's an exaggeration...).

Finally, I'd just add that I pedal a lot, and I get overheated easily. I always wear multiple socks, smartwool long johns, smartwool and rashguard on top (and an additional layer on top if it's especially cold) under my drysuit. Only on the hottest days do I need to strip off anything on the water. It seems to me that for Monterey Bay weather, my drysuit is remarkably good at not cooking me.

I have a super-newbie question since there's a lot of discussion here from people experienced with wetsuits....

does it lessen/negate wetsuit effectiveness to wear a shirt underneath a wetsuit? I have a 3mm wetsuit that is quite comfortable that I like to kayak in, but as it gets colder, I've considered wearing a thermal shirt underneath it just for an extra layer of warmth (not while immersed, just while kayaking). Yes I know I could throw on a jacket over... but my pfd fits pretty snugly and I like it that way, so I really hate to wear a jacket over the wetsuit before putting on a PFD.

But if that thermal shirt will somehow interfere with the natural warmth-retaining function of a wetsuit, then I'll find another solution.

Dry suits really do keep you dry...

Peter, I know you're smart enough to understand the manufacturers' data about permeability across a pressure differential, and all breathable materials, regardless of type or manufacturer, will leak when that pressure differential is reached.  Gore-tex has the highest point of reverse permeability but it, too, will allow water to flow backwards through the material when that pressure differential is reached.  Even the multi-layer stuff.

You haven't reached that point is the best anyone can claim.  I have.  More than once.  With a 3-layer non-Gore product and with a Gore-Tex Pro product, and neither had been punctured.  They will keep you dry to a point, after which they won't.  That's all I'm saying.

Well, that, plus they'll bake you if you're in sunshine all day.

I've used wetsuits and drysuits, and I can see that there are some pros and cons to each. But, I'm confused by the line of reasoning in this response. Yes, with enough pressure, water can get thru Gore-Tex, but the rating for the Gore-Tex Pro in my drysuit is something like 28,000 mm water column, and I don't believe you can reach anything close to that in any real-world scenario. If you were getting wet in your Gore-Tex, I'd bet my bottom dollar that is was due to some issues with poorly sealed seams or other small holes.

Furthermore, if I don't wear my Gore-Tex, what's the alternative? If I'm wearing any breathable fabric other than Gore-Tex, it's going to do worse. On the other hand, supposing that I'm wearing a wetsuit, and I'm above the water and getting soaked. Then I'll probably be freezing, on many days to the point of hypothermia. If I'm in the water, the wetsuit will do its job, but so will my Gore-Tex drysuit (unless it's holey), as there is no way I'm going to even approach the pressure limits--unless I try to swim to the bottom of the Mariana Trench (OK, that's an exaggeration...).

Finally, I'd just add that I pedal a lot, and I get overheated easily. I always wear multiple socks, smartwool long johns, smartwool and rashguard on top (and an additional layer on top if it's especially cold) under my drysuit. Only on the hottest days do I need to strip off anything on the water. It seems to me that for Monterey Bay weather, my drysuit is remarkably good at not cooking me.

Completely agree with Nowhereman. I like being dry and not wet. I started with a 3mil FJ wetsuit and now using an angler semi drysuit.  My 1st drysuit was the Hydrus fabric and upgraded to Goretex that I now use. My Goretex suit is about 5 years old and has been sent to Kokatat for leak repair regularly.  Its faded and stained but its still very breathable and keeps my dry. I've never gone back to wearing a wetsuit.  Here is an expapiner video.

Sad I tore my Kokatat drysuit at HMB last weekend when taking it off.  Hoping it can be repaired, but I'm afraid to wash it now prior to sending in case it tears more.   

Sad I tore my Kokatat drysuit at HMB last weekend when taking it off.  Hoping it can be repaired, but I'm afraid to wash it now prior to sending in case it tears more. 

They'll just say your beastly. Got my first noticeable hole from rockfish recently.. 
or ling 

Dry suits really do keep you dry.  I have spent many 4-6 hour days snorkeling and speargunning in a dry suit, and my clothing stays dry underneath it.  A dry suit makes outstanding rain gear; I have spent many days whitewater kayaking and kayak fishing in a steady rain and wind, and my clothing stays dry under the dry suit. And I have spent many days whitewater kayaking in a dry suit, getting hit by heavy breaking waves and blasting through holes, and my clothing stays dry under the dry suit. On multi-day whitewater kayak trips, I wear the same clothing on and off the river, knowing that I can rely on my dry suit to keep the clothing dry while running whitewater during the day.  A dry suit makes it unnecessary for me to carry a complete set of on-shore clothing inside my kayak, and makes it unnecessary for me to dry out my on-river clothing at night, which in cool and rainy weather can be difficult to do.

I know how much clothing I have to wear under a dry suit to stay comfortable for hours in the water at various water temperatures, such as in the lower 50s.  But to stay comfortable and relatively safe in a dry suit when kayak fishing, you need to compromise.  Because I hope to stay in my kayak and not end up in the water, I usually wear enough clothing under my dry suit to stay comfortable while fishing after checking weather predictions for the anticipated air temperature, wind, and precipitation, which is usually not enough clothing for me to stay comfortable for an extended stay in the water, but is enough clothing to keep me relatively warm for a couple minutes while I right my kayak and climb back onto it.  If I expect the air temperature to be cool in the morning and warmer in the afternoon, I'll wear an appropriate amount of clothing under my dry suit so I won't overheat in the afternoon, will wear a parka or a pile jacket over my dry suit in the morning to stay warm, and will take off the over-layers as the air temperature increases later in the day.  Putting on and taking off a pile hat or balaclava is a good way to adjust your comfort for changes in the air temperature or wind speed during the day; I wear them under my sun hat or waterproof rain hat.

Here's a couple pictures from a four-day 116-mile whitewater kayak trip on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River in Idaho, launching on Marsh Creek, where we paddled through snow on the shore, and sometimes falling snow, for the first day and a half.  I wore the same clothing on the river under my dry suit, and off the river in camp and while hiking, and my dry suit kept the clothing dry.

Wondering what kind of gloves are used... guessing neoprene?

I have a super-newbie question since there's a lot of discussion here from people experienced with wetsuits....

does it lessen/negate wetsuit effectiveness to wear a shirt underneath a wetsuit? I have a 3mm wetsuit that is quite comfortable that I like to kayak in, but as it gets colder, I've considered wearing a thermal shirt underneath it just for an extra layer of warmth (not while immersed, just while kayaking). Yes I know I could throw on a jacket over... but my pfd fits pretty snugly and I like it that way, so I really hate to wear a jacket over the wetsuit before putting on a PFD.

But if that thermal shirt will somehow interfere with the natural warmth-retaining function of a wetsuit, then I'll find another solution.

Anything you put between your skin and a wetsuit will somewhat negate their heat retaining properties, the thicker the shirt the more water it will absorb and your body will have to heat up. Try wearing the same shirt over your suit. To me 3mil isn't enough, yeah enough for a quick dip and remount, but if things go bad and you're in the water awhile not so much.

Comfort question.

Is a back zipper a deal breaker in a kayak wetsuit? will it be a source of discomfort while in the seat?

Comfort question.

Is a back zipper a deal breaker in a kayak wetsuit? will it be a source of discomfort while in the seat?

In that scenario I'd personally be more concerned with being able to pee than the comfort factor.

Comfort question.

Is a back zipper a deal breaker in a kayak wetsuit? will it be a source of discomfort while in the seat?

i wear a 3/4full with a back zipper. i fold the wetsuit down most of the time but usually full zip on surf launch, depending on how bad it looks. usually fold down when otw. when folded down the zipper rubs into your back and is annoying. usually i zip it halfway up so it’s not between my lower back and the seat. peeing is not a problem, just fold the wetsuit down. when i launch somewhere nice - inshore/flat ocean i wear the wetsuit backwards so the zipper is in the front and doesn’t rub.

also u need to know what you’re looking for when buying used wetsuit. wetsuits don’t last forever, esp in kayak. they get worn down from the seat

Comfort question.
Is a back zipper a deal breaker in a kayak wetsuit? will it be a source of discomfort while in the seat?

A zipper across the shoulders of a drysuit should be well above the back of a kayak seat, so it isn't a comfort issue.  The issue is whether you can zip and unzip the back zipper by yourself.  Put on the dry suit and try to zip and unzip the zipper.  If you can't operate the zipper yourself, and would need to have a companion zip and unzip the zipper, don't buy the dry suit.

A story:  On a multi-day kayak trip on the Middle Fork of the Flathead, started by flying into Shaffer Meadows in the Big Bear Wilderness and floating out to the southern point of Glacier Park, a friend was wearing a rear-entry dry suit.  We stopped to scout a rapid which had cliffs on both sides, and didn't notice that the friend had stepped into the bushes to empty his bowels.  We ran the rapid and were sitting in the eddy below it when the friend emerged from the bushes, looked around, and saw us sitting in the eddy. His shoulders slumped, because he couldn't zip up his zipper by himself, and he couldn't hike down to us because of the cliffs.  We sat in the eddy and watched for about 15 minutes while he struggled with the zipper.  I think he finally managed to hook the zipper pull on a tree branch and use that to pull the zipper closed.

Comfort question.
Is a back zipper a deal breaker in a kayak wetsuit? will it be a source of discomfort while in the seat?

A zipper across the shoulders of a drysuit should be well above the back of a kayak seat, so it isn't a comfort issue.  The issue is whether you can zip and unzip the back zipper by yourself.  Put on the dry suit and try to zip and unzip the zipper.  If you can't operate the zipper yourself, and would need to have a companion zip and unzip the zipper, don't buy the dry suit.

A story:  On a multi-day kayak trip on the Middle Fork of the Flathead, started by flying into Shaffer Meadows in the Big Bear Wilderness and floating out to the southern point of Glacier Park, a friend was wearing a rear-entry dry suit.  We stopped to scout a rapid which had cliffs on both sides, and didn't notice that the friend had stepped into the bushes to empty his bowels.  We ran the rapid and were sitting in the eddy below it when the friend emerged from the bushes, looked around, and saw us sitting in the eddy. His shoulders slumped, because he couldn't zip up his zipper by himself, and he couldn't hike down to us because of the cliffs.  We sat in the eddy and watched for about 15 minutes while he struggled with the zipper.  I think he finally managed to hook the zipper pull on a tree branch and use that to pull the zipper closed.

Its a back zipper on a wetsuit. Like a zipper up your spine.

Comfort question.
Is a back zipper a deal breaker in a kayak wetsuit? will it be a source of discomfort while in the seat?

A zipper across the shoulders of a drysuit should be well above the back of a kayak seat, so it isn't a comfort issue.  The issue is whether you can zip and unzip the back zipper by yourself.  Put on the dry suit and try to zip and unzip the zipper.  If you can't operate the zipper yourself, and would need to have a companion zip and unzip the zipper, don't buy the dry suit.

A story:  On a multi-day kayak trip on the Middle Fork of the Flathead, started by flying into Shaffer Meadows in the Big Bear Wilderness and floating out to the southern point of Glacier Park, a friend was wearing a rear-entry dry suit.  We stopped to scout a rapid which had cliffs on both sides, and didn't notice that the friend had stepped into the bushes to empty his bowels.  We ran the rapid and were sitting in the eddy below it when the friend emerged from the bushes, looked around, and saw us sitting in the eddy. His shoulders slumped, because he couldn't zip up his zipper by himself, and he couldn't hike down to us because of the cliffs.  We sat in the eddy and watched for about 15 minutes while he struggled with the zipper.  I think he finally managed to hook the zipper pull on a tree branch and use that to pull the zipper closed.

Its a back zipper on a wetsuit. Like a zipper up your spine.

Ooops. I misread Sprmario's reply.